Article On Top Tackles In 2020 Draft

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General Discussion Forum On The Los Angeles Rams
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zackn
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Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:42 pm

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Dick84 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:40 pm
zackn wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:24 pm
Yeah outliers happen. The thing to watch is if he raises the OL market next year, or is treated as an exception. I say market forces are going to treat that as an exception---and one that gets criticized. The thing NOT to do is to treat an exception as a norm, even if you want to for some reason.
But you keep talking past Ja’Wuan James signing.
When you say it’s cheap and easy to replace a RT, I simply point out that getting one as good as Hav is neither.

The thing *not* to do is ignore the marketplace or the value of the player on your roster.
No I mentioned James a couple of times. Besides, this does not boil down to 2nd contracts--you can find solid ROTs on rookie contracts. Kromer has done that before. And, in relation to the "good as Hav" thing, I had several responses. One is that Hav is not so good as to be irreplaceable--I already mentioned ROTs who are better (largely because they are more balanced and better pass blockers). I also pointed out that it's simply not hard to find a solid ROT while in comparison other key positions are more vital, harder to replace, and harder to find top performers to man them. Keeping Hav costs you someone somewhere, so who are you willing to lose?

What this gets down to is choices and preferences. That';s value judgment territory. For you,what you consider to be a top ROT is important to the team for any number of perfectly understandable reasons. For me, since I think it is far easier to find an at least solid ROT (and Kromer has never had a BAD one), then I would prefer the resources go to positions which are more vital overall and where it's harder to find "keepers." That too is perfectly reasonable...I think we just differ on a value judgment.

Anyway. I figure what this IS NOT is clash over "truth." You could build a team your way AND my way and end up with perfectly good results in either case.

So yeah it's value judgments.

To me ROT is not a position where you invest in a guy longterm. Other positions rank higher for me when it comes to that. What drives the choice is investing a big contract in one position over another (and I think it does get down to that.) There's only so many big contracts you can carry, and being a rare team with both a "franchise qb" and a "top defender" to pay for, the Rams situation is just a bit tighter. To me it's fine to see it in that light since I think (for many good reasons) that finding an AT LEAST SOLID ROT is just not this difficult thing compared to other positions. (For example the Rams may ALREADY have 3 viable prospects who can play ROT, by next year anyway, and yet they are not even sure yet if they have an edge rusher---and that's after spending at least 5 picks on a trade and some draftees).

We just see it differently. There's no "truth" contest.



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Dick84
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Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:42 am

I think that’s a much better overall framing, especially when it comes to theoretical approaches to roster building.

The thing is, with some of the positions that are valued more, is when is spending big money on those positions long-term appropriate and beneficial?
The individual player matters in those instances.
I don’t think we will see a situation where Peters and Fowler are both re-signed. Again.. drafting & development will be key. If David Long is a stud, the Rams only need Talib or Peters in 20 and may be able to find a bridge CB cheaper & draft another CB in 1st or second next year. Basically, same scenario with Fowler, although you also have hope Ebukam develops a little as well.

Those are the immediate concerns.. and I assume Noteboom slides to LT.

If the Rams last two drafts are as good as the one that produced Kupp & Johnson, the cap isn’t going to be an issue, imo.

I agree that the Rams will have ROT options on the roster, btw, but I only see two, Edwards & Evans. I think Demby would be stopgap, at best. My view is that Evans will roll into one of the Guard positions and I think Edwards is more of a swing 3rd than legit starter... but he has some tools and could shock the world. Needs serious work though.


Okay, okay, okay.... I'll stop being a dick.
3-24-16

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zackn
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Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:40 am

Dick84 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:42 am
I think that’s a much better overall framing, especially when it comes to theoretical approaches to roster building.

The thing is, with some of the positions that are valued more, is when is spending big money on those positions long-term appropriate and beneficial?
The individual player matters in those instances.
I don’t think we will see a situation where Peters and Fowler are both re-signed. Again.. drafting & development will be key. If David Long is a stud, the Rams only need Talib or Peters in 20 and may be able to find a bridge CB cheaper & draft another CB in 1st or second next year. Basically, same scenario with Fowler, although you also have hope Ebukam develops a little as well.

Those are the immediate concerns.. and I assume Noteboom slides to LT.

If the Rams last two drafts are as good as the one that produced Kupp & Johnson, the cap isn’t going to be an issue, imo.

I agree that the Rams will have ROT options on the roster, btw, but I only see two, Edwards & Evans. I think Demby would be stopgap, at best. My view is that Evans will roll into one of the Guard positions and I think Edwards is more of a swing 3rd than legit starter... but he has some tools and could shock the world. Needs serious work though.
Well I agree that the player matters and not just the position, and what you want with "keepers" is the right combination of character, talent, and production. And it's true that with a lot of the possible candidates I listed, we don't know the whole story on them yet when it comes to that. Still. Where we differ presumably is how we might rank those positions. I would keep a productive edge rusher, for example (assuming he has the character to get with the program) over a right OT. Unless that ROT was world historic.

I assume that they will draft more linemen and that in the end, with OL draft picks taken from 2018 through 2020, they will have more than the number of players they need. I also think I see more in Demby and Edwards than you do, but we'll see. I actually think it's possible that by 2021 not a single player from the 2018 line will be among the 5 OL starters.



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Dick84
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Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:15 pm

I'm enthusiastic about Demby and Evans... just cautiously so. I also see Demby as a RG more than a RT.

Yes.. the Rams know the answers to character, talent and production with Hav. There are still Qs about Peters and Fowler, and I'd say the bigger Qs with Peters are about scheme fit.


Okay, okay, okay.... I'll stop being a dick.
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Wildflecken
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Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:45 am

Dick84 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:15 pm
I'm enthusiastic about Demby and Evans... just cautiously so. I also see Demby as a RG more than a RT.

Yes.. the Rams know the answers to character, talent and production with Hav. There are still Qs about Peters and Fowler, and I'd say the bigger Qs with Peters are about scheme fit.
Good Post Dick, in order for Wade to put Peters in a position to succeed, he had to alter his philosophy in the defensive backfield.

Unintentionally I am sure, but Wade having Peters take on the number one cb role when Talib went down in 2018 well he ended up saving the Rams some $$ if they want to resign him. Peters will no longer be viewed as a potential number one cb in this league and certainly no team who likes their cb's to press wil sign him

Anxious to see what kind of performance Peters has in 19. Think he has legit shot to produce INT's next season in a similar fashion as he did in KC prior to his arrival



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zackn
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Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:02 am

Wildflecken wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:45 am
Dick84 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:15 pm
I'm enthusiastic about Demby and Evans... just cautiously so. I also see Demby as a RG more than a RT.

Yes.. the Rams know the answers to character, talent and production with Hav. There are still Qs about Peters and Fowler, and I'd say the bigger Qs with Peters are about scheme fit.
Good Post Dick, in order for Wade to put Peters in a position to succeed, he had to alter his philosophy in the defensive backfield.

Unintentionally I am sure, but Wade having Peters take on the number one cb role when Talib went down in 2018 well he ended up saving the Rams some $$ if they want to resign him. Peters will no longer be viewed as a potential number one cb in this league and certainly no team who likes their cb's to press wil sign him

Anxious to see what kind of performance Peters has in 19. Think he has legit shot to produce INT's next season in a similar fashion as he did in KC prior to his arrival
The way 2nd contracts work, though, is that they're really not competitive that way. If you want someone as a starter, you pay him what is the going rate for his position that year. Next year for a CB that will be more that 15 M. I doubt Peters comes up as a free agent without getting any offers to be a starting corner. There really are no reductions or bargains with 2nd contracts for starters. You pay the going rate that year, and all you need is one interested team.

...



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Wildflecken
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Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:16 am

zackn wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:02 am
Wildflecken wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:45 am
Dick84 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:15 pm
I'm enthusiastic about Demby and Evans... just cautiously so. I also see Demby as a RG more than a RT.

Yes.. the Rams know the answers to character, talent and production with Hav. There are still Qs about Peters and Fowler, and I'd say the bigger Qs with Peters are about scheme fit.
Good Post Dick, in order for Wade to put Peters in a position to succeed, he had to alter his philosophy in the defensive backfield.

Unintentionally I am sure, but Wade having Peters take on the number one cb role when Talib went down in 2018 well he ended up saving the Rams some $$ if they want to resign him. Peters will no longer be viewed as a potential number one cb in this league and certainly no team who likes their cb's to press wil sign him

Anxious to see what kind of performance Peters has in 19. Think he has legit shot to produce INT's next season in a similar fashion as he did in KC prior to his arrival
The way 2nd contracts work, though, is that they're really not competitive that way. If you want someone as a starter, you pay him what is the going rate for his position that year. Next year for a CB that will be more that 15 M. I doubt Peters comes up as a free agent without getting any offers to be a starting corner. There really are no reductions or bargains with 2nd contracts for starters. You pay the going rate that year, and all you need is one interested team.

...
Show me a team who hands out FA $$ without regard to quality of or scheme fit of the talent they are signing and just offers going rate because that talent started elsewhere and you will find that team at the bottom of their division each and every season

The objective of FA is to UPGRADE the talent on your roster



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zackn
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Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:40 am

Wildflecken wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:16 am
a team who hands out FA $$ without regard to quality of or scheme fit of the talent they are signing and just offers going rate because that talent started elsewhere and you will find that team at the bottom of their division each and every season

The objective of FA is to UPGRADE the talent on your roster

No one would do that on a 2nd contract. Which is why I stressed, if someone regards him as a starter. So those who regard him as a starter would factor in being a scheme fit and would also probably see the bad half of 2018 as just something that happened and nothing else.

Either way, at 2nd contract time, if you DON'T offer the guy the going rate for a starter, he doesn't sign with you, he signs with someone who does.

If he gets NO offers in that range it means the league as a whole does not regard him as a starter. I don't think that's likely. I would think Peters would have to really screw up all of 2019 to be seen league-wide as NOT being a starter.

This is all just an opinion obviously but...he will do fine in free agency. He will not be seen as downgrading a roster. He will get starter's money from someone who knows about his scheme fit issues and factors it in. Unless, as I said, he really screws this year up.

....



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Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:47 am

If we win the Super Bowl this year, I believe the big old man will get his rocking chair out and retire.

His position is the most important on the olive.
Are there any free agents next year to grab? Currently, I don’t believe we have his replacement in place



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29TheBest
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Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:50 am

I am a guy who believes the games are won in the trenches. That being said if there are stud lineman on both sides I draft them when available. We have been fortunate to draft some excellent late round talent, I am however not sure they are the studs I am referring too. I like Boom, but I am not sure he is the stud that takes that LT position for the next 10 years. I am more sold on Allen's past performance in the Big 10 as an indication how he will perform as a starter.

I absolutely agree with 69 about Demby, he has that look of a guy who although not drafted high can become a long term starter in this league. These type's are rare. I like Boom, Edwards and Evans as very capable backups.

I would move up in the draft next year if a stud LT is available, one who could step right in as the starter and I would be looking for a guard as well, left or right depending on the performance of the starters at those positions this season.

I really believe Peters rebounds from his horrible play last season and will ultimately resign as he loves this team and organization. And I believe a replacement for Talib can come from somewhere within or outside of the draft.

It's time to spend some high draft resources on the O-Line. I believe there are 2 red flags on this team, first are questions with the O-Line and second being our run defense. These are the area's to focus both in the draft, trades or free agency. One very important thing is not to overpay in a trade or free agency.



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Dick84
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Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:56 pm

29TheBest wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:50 am
I am a guy who believes the games are won in the trenches. That being said if there are stud lineman on both sides I draft them when available. We have been fortunate to draft some excellent late round talent, I am however not sure they are the studs I am referring too. I like Boom, but I am not sure he is the stud that takes that LT position for the next 10 years. I am more sold on Allen's past performance in the Big 10 as an indication how he will perform as a starter.

I absolutely agree with 69 about Demby, he has that look of a guy who although not drafted high can become a long term starter in this league. These type's are rare. I like Boom, Edwards and Evans as very capable backups.

I would move up in the draft next year if a stud LT is available, one who could step right in as the starter and I would be looking for a guard as well, left or right depending on the performance of the starters at those positions this season.

I really believe Peters rebounds from his horrible play last season and will ultimately resign as he loves this team and organization. And I believe a replacement for Talib can come from somewhere within or outside of the draft.

It's time to spend some high draft resources on the O-Line. I believe there are 2 red flags on this team, first are questions with the O-Line and second being our run defense. These are the area's to focus both in the draft, trades or free agency. One very important thing is not to overpay in a trade or free agency.
I get putting Oline at a high priority, but I’m just confused by your conclusions.

I guess I’m much higher on Boom than you. The first thing I look at is if he has all the physical traits needed for the position, and Boom checks them all off. He’s got excellent size.. great arm length and top-end athleticism. If there was a physical area that needed work, it’s strength, and having a full NFL season & offseason to work on that, I’m sure he’s put in the work. Next thing I look at is his college performance. Boom played a ton of games and performed at a high level. If there were knocks on him they related to strength and consistency. I’ve discussed strength and I feel very good about him becoming consistent. Why? Mentors. He has latched onto Whit and is, by all accounts, putting in the work. Consistency is a focus thing and I believe he is learning how important it is to bring it every single play.
In short, I have no worries about Boom this year at Guard or next at tackle.
Allen? He does not have ideal size... but many centers are successful at his size. Longer arms than Blythe, and that’s important.
I don’t understand how you conclude Demby is a long term starter.. but all the others are only backups? Don’t get me wrong, I think Demby will start at some point.

I guess I just have more faith in the Rams ability to draft now.


Okay, okay, okay.... I'll stop being a dick.
3-24-16

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zackn
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Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:21 pm

29TheBest wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:50 am

I would move up in the draft next year if a stud LT is available, one who could step right in as the starter and I would be looking for a guard as well, left or right depending on the performance of the starters at those positions this season.
I have a lot of faith in Kromer and his ability to draft OL. He's been at it for a while and has an impressive hit rate. I don't doubt they will draft a couple more lineman next year, but that too (I am guessing in advance) will be lower round redshirts they will develop.

There's a good chance that out of the linemen they have drafted the last 2 years, 4 out of 5 and maybe even 5 out of 5 are hits. That would be in keeping with his last 2 teams (Chicago and Buffalo). His hit rate with them combined was 100%.

Like for example Chicago's Charles Leno. He was a Kromer 7th round pick and is a fixture at LOT for them. Very rarely do teams find starting LOTs after round 2 and Kromer found Leno in round 7.



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